mbachur-
I do not have any other usernames, my intention was that I posted this point more briefly on other threads (as rabbiofberlin noted) and it didn’t seem like too many people ‘heard’ me.
As for your point about the shirt, it is a valid point, but the question is not a question according to the arguments I present in my long megillah. And btw, I posed the same question (rhetorically) to Popa a month ago here http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/the-real-fraud just over halfway down.
rabbiofberlin-
Thank you for your generous compliments. I’m glad you appreciated.
As for the differentiation you make between ‘relative’ and ‘absolute’ ervah, I actually thought the same thing and used those exact words when I explained it to my chavrusa. I think this is clear from the gemaros in Berachos. I don’t have much time now but I’ll post a paragraph from a paper I wrote a while back:
???? ??? ?’ ??? ???? (???? ????? ???????, ??? ????????) ??”? ??????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ??????? ??, ??? ????? ????? ????, ??”?. ??”?, ???? ???? ????? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ????????, ??? ??? ??? ???? ?? ?????. ????? ???? ????? ??? ????? ??????? ????? ????, ?????? ??? ???? ????? ?? ???, ??? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ???”?, ??? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ?? ???? ??? (????? ??:??), ?????? ?? ???? ?? ??? ??? ?? ????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ???? ???; ????? ??? ?? ??? ????? ?? ???? ???? ?????, ????? ????? ????? ??”? ???? ????? ??? ??? ??? ????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ?? ????? ????. ???? ???? ?’ ??? ??? ???? ????? ???, ???? ???? ?? ??? ???? ????, ??? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ?????
??? ???? ?? ??? ???? ????? ?? ????? (??”? ??’ ?? ??”?) ??”? ???? ????? ??? ????? ???? ????? ??? ???? ????? ???? ??????, ?? ??? ???? ???? ???? ???, ???? ???? ??? ???? ??? ??? ?????, ???? ?????? ????? ????, ??”?. ????? ??? ??? ???? ?? ?? ???? ????? ???, ??”? ??? ???? ????? ????? ????, ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? (??? ?:?) ???? ????? ????? ?? ???? ?????, ????’ (????? ??) ??????? ?? ????? ????? ?????. ???? ????”? ????, ??? ??? ???? ????
I think I am being more generous than you in what I am defining as ‘relative’ ervah, but before arguing with me please be me’ayen in the Gemara that brings down that mishnah in Challah.
As for your final point, yes, that is what I was trying to say. I believe that the Gemara in Brachos is not d’oraisa, and ‘das yehudis’ is based upon it, but ‘das moshe’ which at least in some way is d’oraisa is unrelated, which is why ???? ?? ??? ???? has no place in the Gemara in Berachos.
Thank you again for your comments. Shavua tov!