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#2472178
ZSK
Participant

Just throwing this in for a second to correct ujm, despite it probably being a waste of my time:

First, Let me be extremely clear: Any twisting of what I have to say by ujm and my lack of a response should not be taken as me admitting that his is right. It is not. I am simply refusing to engage with an individual who questioned my yichus in a public forum and was slapped down for it, and who additionally is the worst troll on this forum.

In no way is what I’m about to say making a statement that JTS was a good place overall. It was initially – when Sephardic Hakhamim, and specfically Sephardic Hakhamim were at the helm. It was no different than YU. It may have stayed that way had Sephardim remained in control. Once Ashkenazim took over, specifically after Louis Finkelstein, it very quickly in went downhill. It *may* have been okay while Lieberman, Dimitrovsky and Faur were around. Those three were probably the last bastions of actual Orthodoxy at JTS (Weiss Halivni barely counts as Orthodox). Once they were gone, that was it.

ujm declared Lieberman, Faur etc. apikorsim simply because of their affiliation with JTS. Education would remedy this – even just reading publicly accessible resources like Wikipedia or simple Google searches.

My point:

1) For most of the 1900s, the overhwleming majority of American Jews were part of the Conservative movement. Orthodoxy was relatively small. Reform Judaism wasn’t as large either. Historical documentation shows this. It cannot be denied just like the reality is that the European Shtetl was an extremely difficult place to live despite Artscroll and other publishers’ attempts to romanticize it.

2) It is likely that Lieberman and those with his background level were – like AAQ very correctly stated – trying to literally conserve some form of what would be called traditional/orthodox Judaism – because it was at risk of going extinct in the USA. Again, this is plainly obvious considering the churban in Europe, the lack of powerful Orthodox Jewish institutions at that time and the general refusal of Orthodoxy to transplant itself to the USA. (I’m not questioning the Rabbonim of that era – I’m pointing out reality and its consequences.)

3) In hindsight, Lieberman was fighting a losing battle – as were his colleagues. That’s obvious.

4) Lieberman – for all his shortcomings – was not an apikoros. He was most definitely orthodox in practice in belief and would not deviate from halacha. He prohibited the conservative prayer book; he made sure the mechitza stayed up in JTS, he certainly opposed the ordination of women – among many other things. This also applies to other figures at JTS at the same time – such as Faur, who also most definitely was not an apikoros by any stretch of the imagination.

Anyone who has read anything either of those two individuals have written (or the others) knows this because it’s plainly obvious. There’s no shittuf, krumkeit, avoda zara in either individual’s writings, just like there isn’t anything krum about Rav Kook’s writings, despite certain individuals claiming as such without ever having cracked one of Rav Kook’s sefarim.

Should they have all moved to YU? Yes.