Chaim87 – Gedolei Yisroel don’t agree with you. That is why they are opposed to joining.
Everyone currently Chareidi I know who served in the IDF (including many Baalei Teshuvah) also don’t agree with you.
Even many honest RZ who I know also don’t agree with you. The difference in Shittah with RZ is mainly how much risk/damage is “acceptable” to “pay the price” for the fake Geulah. Many of those RZ who don’t accept the secular State as “Geulah” are also in line with the Chareidim on this issue. There is also a political action group of wives of RZ servicemen who try to remedy the ????? ????? situation in the IDF.
You said – “Firstly there are tons of very frum ehrlicha groups in ethe IDF where non of this occurs. Just look around and you’ll see. Loom at them daven and learn in Gaza. Ask r Asher Weiss about the shaIlas he gets from them like how to put in teflin with no arms and you’ll cry. Second. those that go OTD especially charerdim were generally on their way before they joined. So it’s like what came first the chicken or the egg?”
Your Saifa shlugs up your Raisha. If the matzav there is so Ehrliche, so why do davka those with one foot out the door run there? No one said there are NO Ehrliche people there, but the general matzav is decidedly not conducive to that, to put it mildly. There were heartbreaking shailos of Mesirus Nefesh from soldiers conscriptied to the Russian Army and other goyish armies. During the Russo-Japanese War of 1906 and WWI there were in fact “tons of very frum ehrlicha groups” forced in there. That doesn’t mean that the Russian Army is a place for a frum boy. (There also were no girls in the army then, which is the real issue now.)
????, the whole line of reasoning you use is krum. Yosef Hatzaddik went through terrible nisyonos and emerged greater than he ever would have been had he not been there. So send every Joe to endure such nisyonos, because you CAN remain ehrliche if you really want… ??? ???? ???? ??????
Next item – “Or maybe it’s just a dog whistle to say, do like we do in America. We work with goyim and shiksas too. We also “mainstream” but stay strong with our yiddishkiet too, whats wrong with that?”
First of all, halevai that all the chevra in America who “work with goyim and shiksas too” should themselves be Ehrliche. From reading the comments on YWN, which is already a filtered space, you can easily see the ????? ??? in action. Where do you think that comes from? They didn’t get their krum hashkafos from the Yeshivos they went to back in the day. Second of all, which is really first of all, a workplace is something one joins of his own volition, and can choose to leave if the matzav gets too problematic. An army by definition is not like that. The relationship between a commanding officer and his soldiers is not like that of a boss and his employees. Also, a normal boss typically is not interested in pushing an ideological agenda, the IDF most certainly is.
The bottom line, which was also the opening line.- this is up to the Gedolei Yisroel to decide. I see how strong YOU are in your Yiddishkeit by your total disregard for that, so please don’t teach us how to “stay strong with our yiddishkiet”.